Official Luthiers Forum!

if you have a strong bit of self confidence, a resiliant ego, want some inspiration, a standard of craftsmanship to aspire to, have a look at some mind blowing traditional lurhiery!!!

   http://www.vihuelademano.com/index.htmlcrazymanmichael38493.0757291667

All I can say is WOW!! Makes you want to go home and smash a guitar or two! I like the viols the best.
Tracy

Michael,
So whats the big deal. I could whip a couple of those out in an afternoon.

It is amazing, the choice of woods, thedecorative elements, the lines. I wonder if the fluted back came from observing a large turtle that has the same fluted arrangement on it's shell?

How magnificent and I cannot but marvel at the exquisite craftsmanship and without all tool and tech advances since the time they were built.

If you haven't done so, you also need to listen to that instrument. Amazing range and tone. Humbling to be sure.

Beautiful. Mr. Batov has some world class skills and talents. The instruments are just amazing. And, that sound clip was stunning.

Thanks for the link Michael, that made my day.

Jeff

Truly exquisite workmanship!! And the mp3 sound file was gorgeous. Seeing someone do outstanding and detailed work like this can be both incredibly inspiring and mildly daunting.

Oddly enough, 24 years ago this week my wife & I used the very song on that mp3 for our wedding - although it was a different arrangement using lute & two recorders.

Hats off to Mr. Batov!

Skip

Man, I love those Renaissance headstocks! Why can't somebody make a quality, affordable, light weight, open-geared tuner (with a HIGH turning ratio--none of that 4:1 banjo nonsense) that loads from the back, so we can do that on modern instruments?

Carlton

I was looking non-comprehendingly at the inside pic. Is it possible those flutes in the back are bent?

if you by referring to "loading from the back" a tuner with a vertical post perpendicular to the headstock they are available from various manufacturers for approximately $20 a set for grovers, slightly more for schallers, $135 for waverleys to $1000 a set for rodgers, take your pick. or you can use pegs like the examples shown.

and yes i do think the flutes are bent, but to be sure you could ask him.

crazymanmichael38494.0565972222

with a HIGH turning ratio--none of that 4:1 banjo nonsense

Just for the sake of correcting a too-commom mistake, a high ratio is a low numerical one.

In other words, 4:1 is a higher ratio than a 18:1

Said another way, 18:1 is a lower ratio than 4:1

So, if yuo call a manufacturer and ask for a higher ratio than 4:1, you may get a 2:1 or 1:1 <g>

good call MArio. I'm guilty of saying that too, and I even knew that! the
numbers screw ya up...

But as for Banjo tuners they really are not bad at all. I have used them on
my ukes and they are quite nice. I use friction pegs (mechanical not
friction wooden pegs) which are 1:1 and they are not bad either. We just
get spoiled by Low ratio tuners.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

mathematically i have to disagee with mario. the definition of a ratio is the quotient between two mathematical expressions, thus an 18:1 ratio gives a quotient of 18, whereas a 4:1 ration gives a quotient of 4.

think of it this way; if you were a stockholder in a comapany would you prefer to sell your stock at p/e ratio of 4:1 or 18:1. i know what i would prefer.

We're not talking stocks, we're talking gear ratios, which have always been described as such: 18:1 is lower than 4:1

it makes no difference what you are talking about, the ratio is always the quotient. if you are thinking gear ratios as the same still applies. a ratio is a ratio. and 18:1 is higher than 4:1. but if you reverse the manner of expression, as in automotive usage, a 3.14 final drive is a 1:3.14 vs a 4.34 which is a 1:4.34, the 3.14 gives a higher quotient.

crazymanmichael38494.5543055556

<sigh>

I know what you're saying, but the working lingo dictates that 18:1 is a lower gear ratio than a 4:1. No ands ifs or buts. Yes, it may not seem to make sense to you, but it is the working language.

If you're looking at a new truck with a 3:07 rear gear, and you want to tow a trialer, the salesman will suggest you buy a lower set of gears and have them installed. He'll not suggest a 2:41, he'll suggest a 3:42 or 3:73

If you call grover and ask for their tuners with the lowest gear ratio, they'll send you their 18:1 tuners, not their 14:1

Argue all you want about quotient and other stuff, the working language is what it is. Accept it. You're not going to change how to world speaks gear ratios.

Guage works backwards, too, and so many people don't understand it. I overheard a fella bragging of his new boat once, and he was describing the differences between it and a competitor's boat that he was looking at. He said he bas4ed his purchase decision on the fact that the one he bought was made of 16 gauge aluminum and the competitor's was 14 gauge. He was so proud of his smart decision to buy the stronger one that I didn't have the heart to tell him that his 16 gauge was much lighter and thinner than the other's 14 gauge.

Same happens here. Folks often buy the wrong something or other because they don't know, or refuse to believe, that higher numerical numbers in gears mean lower gears. A lot of folks have too much pride when on the phone ordering stuff, and they won't ask; they'll look at the catalog, make their decision and call and place the order like they know what they're talking of. A good example would be if you hear me say to someone that the Grover Sta-Tites with the lower ratio are the better ones, you might run out and order them up, asking for their 14:1 instead of their 18:1. Wrong....

In the case of our truck, you may tell the salesman to knock a few hundred off the price and you'll take care of the gears. He accepts, you buy the truck, then ask him what gear set he recommends. He just simply says that the next set down will be perfect for you. So, you run to the hot rod shop, and look in the catalog, and see that the next one down is 2.71:1, and you have them install the gears. Truck sucks the big one, and can't pull your trailer. The reason? The next gear set down was a 3.42:1, not the 2.71:1 You refused to accept the working language, and it bit you. You can sit there for hours, telling the salesman that you are totally ticked off at his for telling you you needed lower gears when in your mind, you needed higher gears, but he'll just shrug and repeat what I'm saying: lower numerical ratios are higher gears, higher numerical ratios are lower gears.

Period.


s in automotive usage, a 3.14 final drive is a 1:3.14

NO!!!

A "1:3.14" ratio is an overdrive(input turns one revolution, output would turns 3.14 times)

In our world, we have a 3.14:1 ratio, where the input(the driveshaft) turns 3.14 times while the output(wheel axle) turns once.Mario38494.5817361111

Just to play devil's advocate, does this guy can actually make a living making these things?

I don't mean to dang with faint praise as the workmanship is flawless! He obviously knows what he is doing as the mp3 was one of the best sounding vihuelas I have heard. But they are still vihuelas and they have the vihuela's shortcomings of lack of base end and volume.

The point is that these instruments have to be very expensive. Unless you're Julian Bream, who can indulge themselves? Is there a large contingent who are quietly (no pun intended, ) supporting a resergence of popularity for the instrument? I don't mean to be slamming the instrument but there is a reason why they (and lutes too, for that matter) lost favor to the guitar.

Don't get me wrong. I think vihuelas and lutes have a charming sound but their respective voices are rather limited. For purely an acedemic exercize, this site is a wonderful exploration of history (and pure craftsmanship! ) but if this guy can make a living doing this (he kind of looks full-timeish to me) maybe I should give it a try. I think I'll start building high-end tin whistles!

Like I said, I'm just playing devil's advocate

Regards, Steve Brown

Oh, I forgot one thing. I am going to Paris in mid-June. I will be visiting the Musee de la Musique (It's about 4 miles from where we will be staying) as mentioned on the website as they also have at leat one Torrez guitar that I know of. I'll give you a report when I get back.

The Best, Steve Brown

Sheeesh! I didn't mean to spark so much controversy concerning ratios! In any case, as a player who wants more precision in tuning those low strings, the bigger number is the better number in tuning keys.

Crazy Mike...Nope, I mean tuning gears that actually load from the back, like pegs. Now, Allparts has some enclosed rear-loading gears, with, I think, a 12:1 or 14:1 ratio, but they're very expensive and they look like they're quite heavy. Not what I'm looking for.

John Mayes..."...spoiled by low ratio tuners."?! Well, no. I want to be spoiled by having an in-tune instrument! Why do you think banjos have a reputation for being out of tune? Could be poor construction, could be tone-deaf players, but most likely it's those nearly useless 4:1 gears! Players probably just give up in frustration.

Steve Brown...I guess I'll have to play, er, Heaven's(?) advocate. Hearing that MP3, I was reminded of what we're missing in many modern instruments. That thing has a sound like a lover's whisper. Those sweet overtones just seem to resonate unlike anything else. So yeah, I hope he does make a living building them. If it's not loud enough for a big room, stick a mic in front of it, for crying out loud--problem solved! A 21st century solution for a renaissance instrument!

Eric K....I wanna know, too! Bent or carved? If they're not carved, how does he get those compound bends?!

All presented in good spirit, guys,
Carlton

The linen taped joints on the inside would suggest the sections are individually bent and joined.

[QUOTE=CarltonM] John Mayes..."...spoiled by low ratio tuners."?! Well,
no. I want to be spoiled by having an in-tune instrument! Why do you
think banjos have a reputation for being out of tune? Could be poor
construction, could be tone-deaf players, but most likely it's those nearly
useless 4:1 gears! Players probably just give up in frustration.
[/QUOTE]

Well I'll admit I don't know squat about banjo's but the 1:1 tuners used on
ukes work perfectly fine. At least the deluxe Gotoh 1:1 Tuners I use do.
And the 4:1 are even more precise so I don't know what the deal is, but
they work great for me!

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

If I may add my thoughts on hi or low gear ratios. In my opinion, Mario is correct.

Instead of thinking it as 18 or 14 divided by one, which yields 18 or 14, flip the numbers over.

1/18 =.056

1/14 = .071

The larger the denominator, the smaller the result.

18 turns on the big nob to make the little post rotate once. More precision, by a hair.

Value of the above commentary: $0.02

[QUOTE=CarltonM] Steve Brown...I guess I'll have to play, er, Heaven's(?) advocate. Hearing that MP3, I was reminded of what we're missing in many modern instruments. That thing has a sound like a lover's whisper. Those sweet overtones just seem to resonate unlike anything else. So yeah, I hope he does make a living building them. If it's not loud enough for a big room, stick a mic in front of it, for crying out loud--problem solved! A 21st century solution for a renaissance instrument!

Carlton[/QUOTE]

You should write poetry! LIke I said, I like the sound in spite of its deficiencies. Much the same as I like harpsichord music. I am just a little surprised. I did noticed with more investigation of the site that he makes other instruments too. That makes more sense.

Steve

Most of the problem with tuning the banjo is the flexability of the head. The higher you tune the banjo strings, the more it presses down on the head, lowers the action and causes the other strings to go flat. If your head is loose, the problem is worse. If your head is natural skin and the humidity changes, it get even worse. In fact, I was at a banjo camp awhile back when it started to rain. The natural head banjo guy had to give up on tuning their banjos until the air dried out.

Banjo tuners do have to have their back screw tightend from time to time or they will slip. That's a bit on an art because too tight will make the tuners jerkey. I played a Borges OM 45 that had Waverly straight tuners on it. Tuning was not a problem. A 4:1 ratio was not a particularly noticable.

StewMac is now carrying Steinberger tuners that should fit the description. They are light and have a 40:1 ratio. I've never seen one up close but they might be interresting to try. link


If you want light geared tuners that have that old friction peg look check out Pegheds. I know several fiddle players who love these. I don't know any Flamenco guitars outfitted with them but I'd be tempted if I were ever to make a flamenco guitar.

Maybe it is because the tension on uke strings are lower cause I've never
noticed that problem at all...again I know nothing about banjos. And
maybe it is not the tuners, but cheap tuners, if you said the waverlys were
fine.

Those peghead tuners are cool. I've seen them before. nifty concept.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

I've talked with the Pegheds guy about making a set for steel string guitars. He's looking into it. I think they'd be way cool on an OM....

Another part of the problem with banjos is that the players use so many tunings. They can change their tunings for each song, and that means they have to re-tune the entire banjo rather quickly. To the uneducated, it looks like the whole thing went out of whack, but it's just the way it is. If we changed the tunings on our guitars near as much, there'd be as many jokes here, too.

The looooong skinny neck and soft head are the rest of the problem. The tuners have little to do with it.Mario38495.4906018519